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Pore Filling With PolyWhey
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Author:  Pat Hawley [ Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Pore Filling With PolyWhey
I wanted to see how well PolyWhey filled pores so I did a test on some claro walnut that has some good sized pores. After applying a couple of coats of shellac, over a couple of days I brushed on eight coats of the high gloss furniture finish. Part of the test was to see if eight coats would be enough to level and buff out. I thought this might be on the low side, but the PolyWhey seems to build fast so thought it was worth a try. I let the finish sit nine days before I sanded and buffed this morning. Here are the results:

While sanding level, I did sand through on a few spots. So eight coats applied with a foam brush are not enough (for me at least) if your intent is to make this your final finish. However there was still finish on most of the board so if I were doing a guitar, I think I'd be reasonably comfortable that I wasn't going to sand through, say, 14 coats. As a pore filler, I have to say it seems to work well. In fact, it may be the easiest way so far I've come across to fill pores. Makes me wonder how it would work under other finishes.

My other observation is that this time around the finish is much softer than my first test. I had troubles not damaging it during buffing. I could also mark it fairly easily with a thumb nail. At one point I sanded a buffed surface with 1000 grit paper but was able to get it back to the previous gloss level just using Novus 2 plastic polish and elbow grease. That made me go hmmm. In my first test I had waited over two weeks (I think it was actually closer to three weeks) prior to sanding/buffing. Just based on the two tests I've done, that extra time seems to make a significant difference in finish hardness. I still have my original test board and the finish on it is definitely harder than my latest test board.

Finally, the PolyWhey folks were kind enough to send me a sample of their wipe-on PolyWhey. So I've been wiping it on a test piece of rosewood. This product and/or method goes on much thinner. So far I am up to six coats and it looks like I've still got a ways to go before pores will be filled. So I'm not seeing an advantage at the moment of the wipe-on product for the way I would finish a guitar. Perhaps others can point out something I am missing here.

Pat
Author:  Mike Collins [ Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Pore Filling With PolyWhey
Pat
the wipe on finish is great but probably not for those
who want to use it for deep pored woods & need a dipped in
plastic look.
Not that you want that!

I've tried it on every wood in my shop with great results.
Drys hard,self levels & looks great.

Remember to use thin ,but multiple coats.
This helps with curing.
Make sure the humidity & temp.is in the range of usage.

I will use the Furniture High Gloss for spraying.

Mike
Author:  SteveSmith [ Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Pore Filling With PolyWhey
Mike Collins wrote:
Pat
the wipe on finish is great but probably not for those
who want to use it for deep pored woods & need a dipped in
plastic look.
Not that you want that!

I've tried it on every wood in my shop with great results.
Drys hard,self levels & looks great.

Remember to use thin ,but multiple coats.
This helps with curing.
Make sure the humidity & temp.is in the range of usage.

I will use the Furniture High Gloss for spraying.

Mike


Mike, I have some small areas to repair on the gloss furniture product that I sprayed. Do you think the wipe on version (they sent me a sample too) would work for repairs?
Author:  Pat Hawley [ Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Pore Filling With PolyWhey
Steve,

On my first test board about a week ago I took it and made a sand through on purpose just to see how it would repair. I brushed around seven coats on to the sand through, waited about six days and was able to sand and buff it up without any witness lines. Having said that, I would far rather avoid sanding through.... For some reason I can't express, I'm not 100% confident I could do that on a guitar. My experience has been that things are much easier to do on test boards...

Pat
Author:  Pat Hawley [ Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Pore Filling With PolyWhey
Mike,

How have you been applying the wipe-on polywhey on your test boards? Do you anticipate using it for any guitars or will you stick only spraying the furniture finish?

The thought had occurred to me to do build coats with the furniture finish and final coats with the wipe-on. This may save a sanding step or two but that's the only possible advantage I can see.

Pat
Author:  SteveSmith [ Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Pore Filling With PolyWhey
Pat Hawley wrote:
Steve,

On my first test board about a week ago I took it and made a sand through on purpose just to see how it would repair. I brushed around seven coats on to the sand through, waited about six days and was able to sand and buff it up without any witness lines. Having said that, I would far rather avoid sanding through.... For some reason I can't express, I'm not 100% confident I could do that on a guitar. My experience has been that things are much easier to do on test boards...

Pat


I find finish repairs to be difficult but I have one that needs to be done. Sounds like it should work if I can pull it off.
Author:  Mike Collins [ Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Pore Filling With PolyWhey
Steve-
asked-

Mike, I have some small areas to repair on the gloss furniture product that I sprayed. Do you think the wipe on version (they sent me a sample too) would work for repairs?

I see no reason it wouldn't.
I've applied both the furniture & wip-on over Target finishes
& it adhered(sp) .
I had no separation from the Target finish when I rubbed it out.

There will be a learning period for all of us that try it.
I just like the results I've gotten with it.

Mike
Author:  Mike Collins [ Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Pore Filling With PolyWhey
Pat;
I'm using the wipe-on for a Walnut "Flamenco" right now.
This is going to a full time well known player.
I was a bit afraid it would be too thin.
But I put the temp. of my shop up to 72 degrees/40%H.
I was able to wipe & brush a coat on every 2 hours.
May have been able to do it sooner-but I learned(the hard way) to be patient!
Came out great.
The temp. & low /H helped it to dry quick.

Plus it's hard & looks great.
I did use shellac for the first coat.
Let it dry & applied the wipe-on.
There are pores-BUT not deep ones at all.
I like the look of wood.
So this agrees with me.

If a pore filler is used(oil based MUST be cured)
Then a more factory looking finish would have happened.

So far I love this stuff.
Mike [:Y:]
Author:  Darryl Young [ Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Pore Filling With PolyWhey
Mike, how many coats of the wipe-on does it take to build a finish? Seems most of the wipe-on Polys are very thin. The guys at Vermont said you could spray the wipe-on and that it was clear where the gloss furniture poly has a yellow tint.
Author:  Mike Collins [ Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Pore Filling With PolyWhey
Darryl;
I was trying to use it as a wipe on to see how it built up.
I love the fact that it self levels.
I do not know how many coats I'll need yet.
I'll post that # when I'm done.
It looks great!
Grafted Walnut from http://www.Oregonwildwoods.com


I will spray it also very soon.

Mike
Author:  Phillip Patton [ Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Pore Filling With PolyWhey
This stuff sounds interesting. Does anyone know if it can be tinted? How's the durability compared to nitro?
Author:  Larry D [ Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Pore Filling With PolyWhey
Phillip Patton wrote:
This stuff sounds interesting. Does anyone know if it can be tinted? How's the durability compared to nitro?

The product can be tinted. Vermont Natural Coatings will be introducing a new line of colors in the Heirloom Wipe On line as well. Along with a new line of wipe on stains. I have used the stain. We took a long time to get this right so that it works similar to an oil stain but with none of the down sides.
Thanks for your interest,
Larry D
Author:  Pat Hawley [ Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Pore Filling With PolyWhey
So it's now been two weeks that my second test has been curing. It's now definitely harder than it was at nine days (the point at which I sanded and buffed it out) but not yet as hard as my first test which was closer to three weeks before I sanded and buffed. Therefore at this point I would recommend to anyone intending to use it to allow at least three weeks for the finish to harden prior to sanding and buffing. You could probably get away with only two weeks but it will be a harder, more scratch resistant finish at three weeks.

Pat
Author:  brazil66 [ Sat Feb 01, 2014 10:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Pore Filling With PolyWhey
Pat ....have you been sanding between each coat? Grit? Anyone?

I'm trying to finish up my first one with this finish...I'm spraying it, and at about 8 coats now. Sanding in between each coat with 400 grit. I filled with Mohawk mahogany grain filler...and sealed with shellac prior to first coat of Luthiers Blend. Wow...3 weeks before final sand and buff.

Michael
Author:  Pat Hawley [ Sun Feb 02, 2014 8:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Pore Filling With PolyWhey
I was doing tests, but I'm not actually using polywhey on my guitars. When testing, I was lightly sanding every three coats. Let us know how your guitar turns out, Michael.

Pat
Author:  brazil66 [ Sun Feb 02, 2014 10:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Pore Filling With PolyWhey
Will do....and thanks Pat !
Author:  brazil66 [ Thu Feb 06, 2014 8:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Pore Filling With PolyWhey
Well here's an update. Hope to buff tomorrow....monday maybe. Talked to Bill Daly on the west coast....I'm told he formulated this product with the Vermont company. On the buffing issue, he said that "the molecules when agitated will cure faster, finish cures from the inside out.....and to buff in 24 hrs is fine". What I'm told. I will update after that experience. Waiting for 2-3 weeks to buff will kill the deal for me.
And this.....I find that the finish doesn't fill all that well...even having filled the grain prior, and sealed with shellac. Sprayed full strength. For me , the coats have been going on thin...having had problems getting it to stop running (drip running). Fuji HVLP. I've got 9 coats on now, and things almost level and looking good. I waited 2 hrs between each coat.....earlier on sanding between each coat , but towards the end , spraying several (3) with no in between sanding. Yesterday when checking the fit of the neck, I was pulling the neck off the guitar, nice easy fit, and when I looked at the body...there was some peeling started (half the size of a penny)..adjacent to the neck mortise, which I had to super glue to stabilize.. Due to surface tension between neck and body, or what? This gave me pause , as no event happened, it just easily pealed. I'm thinking if there is an adhesion problem...the buffer will tell.
Author:  Pat Hawley [ Thu Feb 06, 2014 9:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Pore Filling With PolyWhey
What polywhey are you using? I found it filled pores and built up fast when I brushed on the furniture polywhey. As I said in an earlier post, when I tested the wipe-on polywhey I did six coats and it looked like I still had a long way to go, i.e. I wouldn't attempt to fill pores with the wipe-on stuff.

Pat
Author:  brazil66 [ Thu Feb 06, 2014 9:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Pore Filling With PolyWhey
This batch is called the Luthiers Blend. Gloss. I spray it.They tell me that it's not out there (yet?) in stores or on the website, that I need to call them, to have it sent. Which is how I got it. Tried the wipe on stuff for furniture...didn't work for my particular application (Windsor chairs). I've seen , supposedly the same(?) stuff "Luthiers Blend" in other containers , labeled differently...so I think they may still be working packaging out. Brushing on could be very different......Don't know.
Author:  arie [ Thu Feb 06, 2014 11:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Pore Filling With PolyWhey
i suggest the floor finish instead of the furniture stuff as it dries much, much, harder -takes about a month though. you gotta realize that poly whey is really thin and takes a lot of coats to build up.
i know the people at vermont will suggest their heirloom furniture line but i suspect they don't understand the needs of instrument builders just yet. they also sell tints for poly whey but they are very aggressive and you'll need to control yourself when mixing.

last i spoke to them they were developing a "luthiers line" but had no product available. i guess now they do and i'll have to try it out.

there's also AFM Safecoat as well to check out.

http://www.afmsafecoat.com/
Author:  SteveSmith [ Sat Feb 08, 2014 10:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Pore Filling With PolyWhey
I did one guitar with the luthiers blend. Used shellac sealer, sprayed on with Walcom HVLP. First effort did not go well, finish didn't harden like I expected. Stripped it and tried again, didn't go well again. Maybe I had a bad batch? Stripped it a second time and used nitro. An earlier guitar I shot with PolyWhey gloss furniture product came out fine.
Author:  brazil66 [ Sun Feb 23, 2014 8:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Pore Filling With PolyWhey
I buffed the guitar out....2 days ago. Waiting a week, after the final coat. Seemed still pretty soft, but buffed anywhey, and had no problem. Came out pretty nice....but found some small pinholes that I couldn't see before. Will drop fill, sand and buff those maybe , maybe not. All things considered....I'm going to continue with it. Possibly trying it over an epoxy filled deal....
I think if could get the pores better filled initially...I wouldn't be so hell bent to chase after em during clearin. Not seeing any info yet on this product over Z Poxy.....but having liked this fill scheme on prior guitars, I'll give it a go under the PolyWhey.
Author:  brazil66 [ Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Pore Filling With PolyWhey
I find after completely finishing the guitar , and playing it a bit....I like the way the finish looks. I'm encouraged to try this again really. I'm told by the Vermont company that they don't sell gallons, and it doesn't seem this is on their todo list, anytime soon. So , I'm looking into another comparable brand (water based Urethane) , as I like the low toxicity factor, if i'm correct in believing this.

Any suggestions for a brand to try. Tried and true?
Author:  arie [ Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Pore Filling With PolyWhey
honestly i wouldn't use this as a pore fill but as i posted earlier, try the floor finish. it's their hardest product and it's sold in gallons too. seal with shellac, pore fill with say acrylic, and then finish.

also check out AFM Safecoat.

http://www.afmsafecoat.com/
Author:  brazil66 [ Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Pore Filling With PolyWhey
Thanks arie.
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